Italian serial numbers marking system It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military weapons The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers, manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial number, progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's in Feb. 1963. See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766. The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156 was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the FBI: THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 # 13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect was done in Dallas to frame LHO) Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection. By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel. There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name. Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew what ammo to use. I suggest the purchase of two books. Anyone interested in the rifle should get these books. There are hundreds of ads and they can be seen in the book, THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was produced by Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early 60's, many varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were offered at low prices. The book contains questions regarding the MC, various ammo loads for it, its clip, and other great information about the stopping and 'knockdown' capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of American Rifleman. Many questions being asked on the posts will all be answered if you own THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a real expert on the Carcano: Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd. # 162, Cameron Park, CA 95682. Last E-mail I had was [email protected]. Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and may know more about the weapon than anyone in this country. His book: THE CARCANO Italy's Military Rifle. (Was about $18.00) He is not a JFK 'BUFF.'- but he sure knows that weapon. If you own these two books, you will hardly ever have a serious question about the Carcano again. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Carcano Potpourri !!!!!!! Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS) : 'Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in conjunction with the Feldsott brothers, won the bidding with a total offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns.' '... Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included in the contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items sepatate from the surplus weapons, on three occasions.' Aug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm July 31, 1961.................... 1,304,352 same June 6, 1962 ..................... 652,176 same The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per bullet. ' From: THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US before Cresent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as early as the spring of 1958 In this ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95 - Good outside, very good inside. A very good outside: Excellent inside sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside and outside cost $16.95. For 98 cents, a leather sling was available and a cleaning rod cost 79 cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98. The following month - the same ad, but the sling and rod were included free. From 7- 58 until 10 - 60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs. Then, in 10 - 60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM SPORTERIZED MODEL for $19.88. In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN . In 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : 'Let's find out where some of these Carcano rifles have gone.' Macy's and Sears Roebuck, as well as sporting supply stores, discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus stores sold the weapon and the ammo. Some of these guns came from Finland: 'During the first winter of the war with Russia, Findland procured from Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5 mm ammunition which Findland decided to manufacture for these weapons during WW II. Findland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38, 7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today, the greater portion of the M 38 carbines Findland received can be traced to the U.S. market as surplus war goods.' FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
Terni 1939 xvii mtr. G4321, calcio timbrato e monomatricola. Eccellenti condizioni: terni 1939 xviii fp po mtr. V8275 derivato da arma 1897. Calcio timbrato e monomatricola. Eccellenti condizioni: terni 1939 xvii re coronato monomtr. M7977 su base po 1897, faet, terni. Tracce di timbro tondo sul calcio. Otturatore gs o sd tni, coroncina sul. Italian proofs and Finnish “SA” marking. Also marked 1939 XVII/crown/RE/TERNI. Tapped for scope mount on the left side of receiversee pic.
Buy online, view images and see past prices for ITALIAN TERNI MODEL 1939 XVII 7.35MM RIFLE. Invaluable is the world's largest marketplace for art, antiques, and collectibles. RE Terni Carcano 1939 XVII - 7.35 caliber carbine Serial#G7122 (firearms) Winning bidders of firearms must allow time for the required transfer paperwork & background check. Local buyers must contact our office to set an appointment for pick-up. Shipped firearms must be sent to a dealer with a Federal Firearms License. Terni Fixed-38 Fucile Corto 7.35x51 Carcano C6788 C6788 Terni 1938 XVII Fixed-38 Fucile Corto Sporterized 7.35x51 Carcano C9445 None RE Terni 1938 XVII Adjustable-38 Fucile Corto 7.35x51 Carcano C9696 R7795 Terni 1938 XVII Fixed-38 Fucile Corto 7.35x51 Carcano C8437 C8437 RE Terni 1939 XVII.
On Sep 11, 8:22�am, David Von Pein <[email protected]> wrote: > The above post of The Purv's can filed in File 13, of course (aka: the > garbage can). > > Does Purv seem peeved this morning? > > I can understand that, I suppose. For years and years he's been unable > to convince a single person of his nuttiness re. JFK's head wounds. > That must be rather discouraging, seeing as how he's tried to convince > everyone of it for quite a while now. >
Re Terni 1939 Xviii
> RE: C2766....... > > The C2766 argument, of course, is nothing but a sideshow...i.e., > totally unimportant...but certain kooks want to think that if a second > or third or fourth gun with 'C2766' on it can be discovered, then > somehow that actually means something significant with regard to this > murder case. Of course, it doesn't. But they'll go on & on about it > anyway. DiEugenio being a good recent example of this. > > IOW -- To a kook, Chaff Trumps Wheat....each and every day of the > week.
> > Also: > > Amazingly, not only hasn't a second or third 'C2766' gun been > discovered....but there hasn't been a single example of a duplicate > set of serial numbers on MC 91/38s of ANY serial number (that I am > aware of). And 'C2766' is not the same as '2766' (as revealed in > CE2562). The 'C' makes it a totally-unique number on the gun. > > My guess is that no two MC 91/38s were EVER produced with IDENTICAL 5- > character serial numbers. There was more-than-likely a system in place > at all of those MC factories mentioned by The Purv-man above whereby > no two guns would end up with the exact same serial number. Otherwise, > what's the point of a DISTINCT SERIAL NUMBER being stamped on a gun > (or on anything) in the first place? > > Anyone thinking that there might be up to '30 to 50' MC 91/38 rifles > that all possessed the exact same serial number is just flat-out > idiotic. > > Again, if there are '30 to 50' MC guns with 'C2766' on them, why on > Earth hasn't some crackerjack conspiracy-seeking person come up with > even ONE additional example of a 'C2766' in 45 years? > > Not a ONE has been unearthed, even with many people (undoubtedly) > trying to find one too.
So! Now you have become a worldwide expert on all of the Carcano weapons throughout the world.
*It is noted that of some 59 weapons which Richard Hobbs has managed to secure information on, he has no other Model 91/38 Short Rifle/ Fucile Corto which contains the 'C' prefix, other than C2766. However, the data base has several of these weapons in the 7.35mm caliber with the 'C' prefix in the serial number.
So, unless Von Pinhead has a better 'data base', then one will just have to leave it with that.
Whereas, the Model 91/38 TS Carbine (true carbine) is not that uncommon in the 'C' prefix, as even I have one (TS Carbine Serial# C5522/Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture) that is not recorded in the Hobbs database.
91/38 Moschetto T.S. 6.5x52 Carcano C1565 C1565 Beretta 1940 XVIII -------------------------------------------
91/38 Moschetto T.S. 6.5x52 Carcano C5901 C5901 Beretta Gardone 1940 XVIII -------------------------------------------
Re Terni 1939 Xvii
91/38 Moschetto T.S. 6.5x52 Carcano C8532 C8532 Beretta Gardone 1940 XVIII -------------------------------------------- 91/38 Moschetto T.S. 6.5x52 Carcano C6453 None FNA Brescia 1942 XX Fixed ------------------------------
Which information, to a prudent person, clearly demonstrates that Serial Numbers on these weapons, without the exact Model Identification and the specific plant of manufacture, means absolutely nothing.
Re Terni 1939 Xvii Rifle
Of course, to a Von Pin/Parrothead, it is too difficult to comprehend and they have to stick with what Frazier tells everyone.
As a prime example of the futility of attempting to trace a Carcano merely by serial number, here is an example.
1. I possess a true Model 91/38 TS Carbine, (all original) Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber, serial number C5522.
2. I possess a true Model Cavalry Carbine, original serial number RO 1355 (stamped into stock), which has been rebarreled with a serial# UG 4267 Beretta Gardone plant of manufacture, 6.5mm caliber.
Carcano Re Terni 1939 Xvii
The actual barrels on these weapons are identical.
The barrels can be relatively easily switched on these weapons, and I would thereafter have a TS Carbine with the serial number UG 4267 and a Cavalry Carbine with the serial number C5522.
Far too confusing for a 'Pinhead' to understand the potential significance of.